I suppose during this last week, though, your pcs ran into some subjective reality on what I've just been talking about: that you did have a freedom to communicate and freedom to communicate to.

You recognize, there is one — there is one little spot, here, that's kind of hot. And that is that there is a state above cause and effect, you know? And to come into control of cause and effect, you've already assumed an estate which is higher than cause and effect, you know? So, cause and effect all by itself isn't a final answer. You're aware of that, aren't you? Because the thetan gets into a state higher than cause and effect.

I don't know how a thetan can be an effect in the first place. It's one of the wildest things. There are a whole bunch of particles flying around. You have to identify and associate yourself with one of the particles and then get it hit, that is the favorite method of doing so. And then you get it hit and then you can be an effect. Remarkable. No mechanism needed to be cause. But there is a mechanism needed to be an effect. It's obviously much harder to be an effect than a cause.

Okay. What questions do you have about your processing? Yes.

Male voice: On this creative processing, I noticed that sometimes this unsettling back to null may be a matter of just three or four commands. Now, would you consider that sufficient? In other words, you start on the object that is null, and it unsettles, say, on the second command and is unsettled for the third, fourth, maybe fifth command and then by the sixth command, it's back to a null again.

Yeah. Well, if you kept running it, you would probably find it'd unsettle again.

Male voice: Yeah. But the thing is, how many nulls and how many unsettlings do you want?

We really don't want an unsettling. What we really want — or a settling or an unsettling — what we really want is a confidence, a renewed confidence. And you get that by two-way comm, to some degree. This fellow is feeling real cocky. He can do it; he isn't feeling uneasy or insecure about it at all, why, that's the time to leave it.

Male voice: Okay.

Yes?

Male voice: What do you do when the preclear says, "Well, my mock-ups are solid, they're staying right there and not going away, and I don't have to hold them," and it just keeps going that way, and you might ask . . .

I'd keep saying, "You do it."

Male voice: Yeah.

I'd keep saying, "Well, you do it."

Male voice: Well, okay.

"Are you the one — are you the one who is making it very solid?"

Male voice: Sure, and he says, "Yeah! I've been doing it." But you just keep on — you just keep on doing that, huh?

Yeah. Yep. You're liable to find something remarkable happen like that, sometimes. Not with this preclear, particularly, that you're speaking of. But you're liable to find out all of a sudden that the mock-ups suddenly tear up their roots, and this was all automatic.

Male voice: But yes, well, I was the preclear I was talking about, and so in order to get certain I was doing it, I found some energy, man, oh, out there a quarter of a mile or so, so I stuck some mock-ups in those energy masses and by golly, they'd move! I made them hold still.

Yeah. Yeah. Of course, you're going through the cycle of making it tougher so that you can prove it.

Male voice: Well, is that good or bad or indifferent?

It's just a phase.

Male voice: Oh, okay!

Just a phase. All pcs pass through this one: "How can I tell if I'm keeping it from going away, if it doesn't threaten to go away?" So they'll make it jump.

One fellow I ran into had developed an automaticity which he used, I think, for about four or five hours of processing. And the automaticity he developed was very cute. He developed it on a postulate, and then after a while he forgot that he developed it, so he complained about it. He'd put it up and keep it from going away. He'd keep it from going away, all right. But he made the postulate that it would try to get away, and then he would bring it back! And this proved that he had kept it from going away, which was quite remarkable. And so everything he put up bolted after a while, you see? And then, eventually he got up to a point where he ran out his own postulate and it didn't do it anymore, which is — shows you that a thetan sometimes outsmarts himself with these sort of things.

"Keep it from going away" is a double-entendre, you know? "Continue it," or "Keep it from flying out" — a preclear discovers this somewhere along the line that he can do either one and comply with the command. And if he mentions this to you, you, of course, immediately agree with him that this is a fact. Yes. It can mean either of two things. What does it mean to him? Get the idea? You don't keep him on snatching them back.

One person had an automaticity on some object, and this object was flying all over the room, but he was keeping it from going away simply because he was not letting it fade — chasing it around all over the place, not letting it fade. He still complied with the command. You got that? And after a while it settled down, and that was that.

Yes?

Male voice: Well, on the preclear that got to the state where he could make it null or not at will, depending on what he did with it — and this is okay, except he was real cocky at this point. . .

All right. This is fine. What's wrong with that?

Male voice: That's fine?

Nothing, except your pc rose up and beyond E-Meters.

Male voice: Yeah, this was with certain objects . . .

Certainly.

Male voice: . . . they worked with for a while.

Well, he ought to be able to do them all that way — not to set up any particular goal of any kind or another.

People have trouble with me on two things: IQ tests — have trouble with me on IQ tests because I always ask them what IQ they want, and then give it to them. Somebody gave me one, one time, I think she said . . .

I said, "What IQ do you want?"

And she said, "Well," she says, "a hundred and sixty-seven." So I gave her a hundred and sixty-seven. Now, that is — that's just being a smarty and so forth. But as a matter of fact, the test in this particular case could have tested nothing, don't you see? So you had to make it test something and so on.

Now, you'll get up on E-Meters to the point of where the guy can throw the needle or not throw the needle. And he'll become very, very interested in throwing the needle or not throwing the needle, you know? And how far?

I can set up an E-Meter and hold its needle most anywhere. It's not that I'm very remarkable. I mean, I'm just used to the machinery. And I can hold it in the middle of the dial, or so forth. You saw it holding there the other day.

What?

Male voice: At what point in this procedure do you get to the point where all objects are null on the meter?

At what point?

Male voice: Yeah.

Well, that would be a very thorough Clear.

At what point? It would be after the point the fellow had attained the idea that he could postulate it. He didn't have to put any effort or energy into it. And you'd get the non — the insignificantness or nonsignificance of all objects. And all objects, then, could have been significant or nonsignificant. He would have to put the significance into the object in order for the object to have significance. And you're talking about a Clear.

Male voice: Well, the reason I asked the question was because I have got an answer to that question — I got two answers to that question. One of them was that when you got through Step 7, well you were at that point. And the other answer I got was that when you got through Step 7 you weren't at that point!

Step 7 simply introduces an arbitrary. There are some people that won't get to that point until they've been through 5, 6 and 7 on your Intensive Procedure half a dozen times. And other people will get there the first time. You know, it's when — it's what Step 7? You get the idea? I'm not being smart — I mean, it just is.

Male voice: Okay.

Some fellows, it takes longer than others, that's all.

Now, there's another question that has come up here, and that is the matter of clearing fields. Should you totally clear a field? Shouldn't you totally clear a field? After that randomity we ran across the other day, I'm running experiments along this particular line. It may be, sooner or later, that you might have to come back and clear a whole field. Get the idea? You might have been able to proceed quite a distance on a partially cleared field, but then you might have to come back and clear the whole field, don't you see?

It might not be possible for you to clear the whole field the first time you tried to clear the field, but after you had worked with a preclear for a few hours longer, why, it might then be possible for you to clear the whole field.

You get the idea? But it seems apparent — it seems apparent that sooner or later you'll have to clear the field. The field will have to be cleared.

There are some automaticities that hang on about the field, particularly in the field of blackness — the black field and the invisible field because these are the fields used to restrain things from coming in. And when you start somebody from keeping them from going away, all of the times he has restrained things from coming in with a black screen or an invisibility, then spring into view. So you can get a lot of randomity that way. You see, a black or invisible screen is used to restrain things from coming in. Now, you ask the preclear to keep something from going away. Actually, he has totally defeated himself the moment that he's told something not to come in. He's defeated himself the moment he says, "It must not approach any closer." "I must not be an effect" is the same postulate. Do you see that? So sooner or later — sooner or later this field will clean up, either on the processes themselves or the auditor sits down and cleans it up, and it's a question of what should he do? Well, the answer to that question is how much trouble is this causing? How much is it holding up the case? Don't you see? It's a matter of judgment.

Yes, Burke?

Male voice: That partially answered it. Since the field is a picture or a set of pictures, if by running Creative Processing you were bringing pictures in general under control, you would assume sooner or later the field itself would come under control, too.

Theoretically. It's just a picture.

Male voice: Yeah.

Now, there's something that argues against this which is interesting, and that is, should you ever touch a significant picture? The way we were running it at first is that after you've done nonsignificant things, should you then start doing significant things. And apparently — apparently, as experience has mounted up here, it is probably an error to handle any significant object because all objects will sooner or later sort out and become nonsignificant. . .

Male voice: Yeah. . . . and that is the time to handle them, evidently.

Yes?

Male voice: If an object turns up null, what do you mean by significant or nonsignificant?

Null and nonsignificant — synonymous.

Male voice: Okay.

It means how much is that object shuttled into the deck.

Male voice: Yeah.

Female voice: Yes, I wanted to ask you about acknowledgments. It seems like I could acknowledge without using mass but I usually acknowledge — or I often do — sort of across a distance. You got me?

Yeah.

Female voice: And I'm not always quite sure if this — it's not too easy a question to answer.

Well, I just talked to you here in the former hour about communicate or not communicate as the case may be. Do you understand that? And this is the third universe — the universe of a body; whether to communicate to the body or not communicate to the body, don't you see?

Now, we all have, to some slight degree, reservations.

Female voice: Well, my tendency is to do it in terms of mest.

You'll get over it, or you'll go on doing it that way.

Female voice: It's a choice, that's all.

Why don't you just make up your mind?

Female voice: Okay.

All right.

Male voice: Seems to be an interesting concept on this clear field or partially cleared field. You get a person who's got, let's say a completely nonclear field, he has a concept of he hasn't got any space because it's all something, you know — a field . . .

Yeah.

Male voice: You get a partially clear field, preclear can mock up a mock-up because he's got a concept now of what is partially clear and there is some space. You see, there he can work. But when you get a clear field, you don't give a damn whether you've got a space or not.

Hmm.

Male voice: It's no longer important.

That's right.

Male voice: You can mock up the Sahara Desert here or fifty thousand miles away — so what!

That's right.

Male voice: Which is an interesting concept in Clear people.

Right. Right.

Come on, somebody else ask a question around here.

Yes?

Male voice: Is the plan, after you've gone through what is supposed to be Clear Procedure now — is the plan to just carry on with this same procedure to finish out the time — there's some of us that will have, probably, about a whole week of processing on top of this. And, you're not ready to answer that question, are you?

Oh, no! I'll answer that question. You won't like it. You won't like it. The answer is this: is, yeah, he talked a moment ago about somebody getting cocky, you know, about the idea of yeah, he could do it, he could throw the needle around or he couldn't, you know? This sort of thing. Well, if you get a total series of nulls, that is to say, nothing reacts unless the preclear wants it to react, there's still one thing that isn't happening. You spoke as though, well, the whole week and we'll just have to fool around. But, let me tell you something — let me tell you something: Nobody else has seen one of those mock-ups you've put up yet! (laughter)

Have they?

Audience: Ooh-ho!

Male voice: They damn nearly have.

Huh? Have they seen any of those mock-ups?

Male voice: No.

No. Well, you see, it isn't solid. (laughter)

Now, that isn't an invalidation. That is simply this: The same processes go on up toward OT. And you're passing mest Clear. And if a few don't do that here, I'll be very disappointed. You're going on up toward OT.

Because one of my ambitions is to mock up a little herald with a little trumpet and a little sheet of parchment, and have him walk up the steps of the White House down here and read his proclamation, and it's "People of Earth we come in peace." And the secret service men say, "What are you doing here? Get out of here." And he won't move and they'll shoot him, see? And the next morning he walks up the steps. And he does this for about thirty days. That's an interesting idea, isn't it?

Audience: Yes. (laughter)

Male voice: The reason I asked that question is I have — not that I expected to get bored through the week, because I don't. I think there is sufficient objects to keep me busy.

Right.

Male voice: But what I had in mind was a little IQ processing on withholding, and that sort of thing. Thought maybe . . .

You'll get further — you'll get further with what we're doing. I mean, it's already been subjected to test.

Male voice: Well, that's what I wanted to know.

There's only one other process that has pay dirt in it after a person reaches that state, that has real pay dirt in it, and that's Rising Scale Processing from way back when — just giving him exercises in changing his mind. However, I think that these 5, 6 and 7 of your Intensive Procedure get more gain, you see, because we are not at a state where we are producing mest. And that is a possibility. I don't say it will happen, but it's a possibility. You'd have to be doing everything with a postulate and doing a something-nothing on anything, you see, no effort involved in the thing, for it to be a technical mest Clear. Beyond that point, now we have other influences. See, now we've got the fellow's mind straight for one universe, see. One thetan, one mind, one body, see — one universe.

Now, one of the first things that you bang into is the mest universe, see, because that is awfully singular, and it busts up rather easily. Then we move into this sphere of one body. For instance, the old lady who steps off the curb, you see that she's going to walk into traffic, you think she should step up on the curb; with postulate alone you simply step her back up on the curb. Now you get into two bodies, right? Scientologists have, before this, taken somebody who's walking across, along the street on crutches, something like that, and all of a sudden — this has happened several times, by the way, I've got some records of this. And all of a sudden said at this person, you know, "Straighten up." Pooh. See, and the guy wonders what the hell he's got a crutch for. Almost falls over on his face and has an awful time, because somebody by postulate wiped out a chronic somatic, don't you see?

This sort of thing starts into the realm of the improbable and the magical, you know? Well, how far does it go into that particular field? I can't tell you. I can't tell you at all. It's probably something "very damaging" we're doing here, I mean, we're probably . . . (laughter) But by doing the same processes, you get up toward the line.

Now, I've started to nag a case — a preclear. After the preclear was getting too complacent, I started to nag him. I said, "Come on, now I want a solidity of this order: that one spoonful of the mixture would weigh as much as Earth. One spoonful of the mock-up would weigh as much as Earth. Now, that's how solid I want this up." And he'd sweat and strain at it, and he'd finally get a solidity like that. I've seen them start doing this, you know? They're putting the mock-up on the floor and they expect the floor to cave in, you know? And we're just running out the additional restraints, you see? The fellow did have a restraint. He did feel he shouldn't make things so solid that he'd crack Earth in half, you get the idea? And he still had an idea that he was playing a game within finite limits. And I made it my business to blow up those finite limits wherever they might exist.

The fellow says, "If I made it more solid than that, it'd become radioactive and explode." And I said, "I expect you to make it more solid than that and hold it together." You just have to jack your sights up at how solid something can be or how visible it can be.

Yes?

Female voice: You couldn't go off the meter, so we got cocky easy.

You can go off the meter. One of my tests of Clears: is he on one?

Male voice: That's a good test, yeah.

That's a test for Theta Clear, not mest Clear.

Male voice: What's this?

"Does he register?" Well, if he registers the exact amount of a dead body, you know, if he registers the exact resistance of the meter, it'd mean he was totally out of contact with it, wouldn't he?

Audience: Yeah. Yeah.

But theoretically, he's off the meter.

You'll start to fall into and recover a tremendous amount of the phenomena we've gone over in the last many, many years. And there's lots of it. There's lots of it. It isn't that you have to take it all and review and examine all of it, but bits and pieces of it show up and blow and so on.

There's the phenomenon of invasion of privacy, is about the first thing that starts to blow up above Clear. A fellow says, "Why am I restraining myself to this degree?"

And you say, "What are you talking about?"

And he'll say, "Well, I'm just restraining myself and . . ."

"Well, what are you restraining yourself about?"

"Well, I don't know. It's awfully hard for me to sit here and not talk with your voice," or something of the sort, you see? Well, he must be awfully hard to locate and he must be having locational difficulties himself, you see, and he's run immediately into the world of bodies. Actually, it's very easy for him to restrain himself and not talk with your voice, see — nothing to it. There's so much "nothing to it" that he would have to decide to do it. You get the idea? It isn't a tendency that he cannot combat, or he's having difficulty combating. That lies in the field of aberration. That's doing something he doesn't want to do or doing something that he's having difficulty doing.

Another thing is fear of consequences. You do something because it is the thing to do, not because you will be punished because of it. And other mores that comes up.

Right.

Male voice: How long would you run a null object that didn't unstick or get a charge on it?

Several hours.

Male voice: Several hours.

Mm-hm.

I've run a null object several hours, that finally cleaned, mysteriously.

Male voice: It stayed null all that time, and then you got a charge on it and it nulled again?

No. Maybe I've got your question wrong.

Male voice: I mean, you pick up the object, say, the second time through on Make It More Solid, something of this sort, and there's no charge on it at all. You go around four or five times, there's still no charge on it. It's a null; it remained a null.

All right.

Male voice: How long do you keep it up? You don't.

You don't. I thought you meant that you were getting a reaction on it.

Male voice: Oh no, it remained null.

Well, I've gone several hours on an object I was getting a reaction on, before it nulled. And I have only taken three or four passes at an object that was null when I was getting the case — the case was in pretty good shape — was shaping up very nicely. An E-Meter can save you an awful lot of time that way. And you'll see at once why, why you can do it so fast with an E-Meter.

I'm sorry, I answered that backwards, see?

Male voice: I see. I got it.

Second male voice: Does the thetan keep mocking up all his bank all the time or just a part of it?

Does he keep mocking up ...

Male voice: . . . all his bank all the time, or just a part of it?

He does not mock up all the bank all the time. Not by a long shot.

Second male voice: Okay. Then he just knows it all, and then if he decides to mock up a picture to glom into, then he does it (snap) ?

Yeah, he keeps it mocked up.

Now, the difficulty a thetan has with the bank is a very simple difficulty: He's afraid that some scene that was mocked up that he couldn't unmock will mock up again and he won't be able to unmock it. And sure enough, he gets into it and he can't unmock it, and therefore feels trapped. And one of the great advantages of Dianetics, and that on which it based itself, is that you showed him how to unmock that picture that was chronic. Although he continued to mock it up, you could erase it at the same time, which is rather remarkable.

He just mocks up those things which are called to mind.

Male voice: Mm-hm.

That was one of the great discoveries which suddenly moved us out into a clearing activity, is that the bank was not stored anywhere. You should understand that. There is no stored bank. It is mocked up as he looks at it.

Male voice: That's what I thought.

It's mocked up and he doesn't look at it. He mocks it up against the body, you see, and doesn't even observe that he is doing it — quite remarkable.

Just got time for one more question. You haven't asked one.

Male voice: Well, I just wondered if there are any specific processes you'd use after you got a Clear, other than the ones we have now and Rising Scale Processing, to make an Operating Thetan.

That question is not germane to this agenda at this time.

Male voice: Oh, I see.

In the first place I would be talking beyond what I know, and I try not to do that.

Male voice: All right.

Even though it apparent sometimes makes me look stupid and look cautious and a lot of other things, I will not talk largely and roundly about things I don't know about yet. And I just turned out an HCO Bulletin here, which circulated to staff, on the subject that this is the zone of research. I know I've already overshot Clear on at least two cases — way overshot it, just with the processes of Clear.

Male voice: Okay.

And so I know that continues on for quite a distance.

Male voice: Well, that's all I wanted to know.

And I know that Rising Scale Processing happens anyway: A person goes untangling his postulates for weeks and weeks and weeks after he's cleared, and you could sit right down and do it with Rising Scale Processing. And beyond that, I don't know. That answer it?

Male voice: Yeah.

Okay. Thank you very, very much.

Audience: Thank you. Thank you.